tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post939747810441165942..comments2024-03-28T06:20:10.699-07:00Comments on Shut up about Barclay Perkins: Grätzer - it's officialRon Pattinsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-9208628343718775892013-03-17T19:22:11.172-07:002013-03-17T19:22:11.172-07:00I strongly object to this widespread use of Greatz...I strongly object to this widespread use of Greatzer as the name of Grodziskie beer. Grodzisk was from the very beginning part of Poland and name Grätz was used only during German occupation in 19th century and of course during Nazi time. Additionally is totally inappropriate to include this traditional Polish beer as a German style. In the next few days I'm going to write more detailed letter to ABA about why this is an incendiary issue and oversight that needs to by rectified.Maciej Wojtkowiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05510976481812496994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-12876597578632092852013-03-14T15:08:12.066-07:002013-03-14T15:08:12.066-07:00Check it out:
"Hello:
Thank you for takin...Check it out: <br /><br />"Hello:<br /><br />Thank you for taking the time to provide thoughtful feedback about the 2013 BA Beer Style Guidelines.<br /> <br />We received a number of constructive comments (including yours) in particular about Grätzer, which showed up for the first time ever in the 2013 guidelines. Normally, those comments would have been included in review during October thru December of 2013, with an eye towards inclusion in 2014.<br /> <br />However, because the constructive comments you submitted were credible and differed considerably from the guidelines, and because the 2013 guidelines will be used as the basis for both the 2013 GABF and 2014 World Beer Cup competitions, we undertook a process to update the 2013 Grätzer guideline now.<br /> <br />The updated version can be found here: http://www.brewersassociation.org/pages/business-tools/publications/beer-style-guidelines<br /> <br />We also noted that Grätzer and Adambier did not show up in the Table of Contents, which has been remedied.<br /> <br />Again, thank you very much for providing your insights and knowledge of styles. Please consider sending future input to our style feedback collection tool at survey monkey (link also on the same page).<br /> <br />Very best wishes,<br /> <br />Chris Swersey<br />Technical Brewing Projects Coordinator<br />GABF and WBC Competition Manager"<br /><br />And the revised entry (such as it is): <br />Grätzer<br />Grätzer (also Grodziskie) is a Polish-Germanic pre-Reinheitsgebot style of straw to golden colored ale. Chill haze is allowable at cold temperatures. The distinctive character comes from 100% oak wood smoked wheat malt. The overall balance is a sessionably medium to medium-high assertively oak-smoky malt emphasized beer. Aroma is dominated by oak smoke notes. They have a medium low to medium perceived clean hop bitterness. European noble hop flavor notes are very low to low, and low ester may also be present. Body is low to medium low. A Kölsch-like ale fermentation and aging process lends a crisp overall flavor impression and low degree of ester fruitiness. Sourness, diacetyl, and sweet corn-like DMS (dimethylsulfide) should not be perceived. Historic versions were most often bottle conditioned to relatively high carbonation levels.<br />Original Gravity (ºPlato) 1.028-36 (7-9 ºPlato) ● Apparent Extract/Final Gravity (ºPlato) 1.006-1.010 (1.5-2.5 ºPlato) ● Alcohol by Weight (Volume) 2.1-2.9% (2.6-3.6%) ● Bitterness (IBU) 15-25 ● Color SRM (EBC) 3-6 (6-12 EBC)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18433992121241638535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-91904111718525354572013-03-13T06:29:00.408-07:002013-03-13T06:29:00.408-07:00Now THAT's a well delivered rant (and well des...Now THAT's a well delivered rant (and well deserved). Based on the "official" guidelines I can't say I'll be rushing out this afternoon in search of a few examples to ponder later tonight.<br /><br />Cheers! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-78071744624515358792013-03-11T14:44:07.601-07:002013-03-11T14:44:07.601-07:00I just happen to have a reccolection of a thing I...I just happen to have a reccolection of a thing I have read, by why oak-smoked? Should it not state "beech"?Zgrozanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-79394887075033682342013-03-10T14:20:19.736-07:002013-03-10T14:20:19.736-07:00Interesting discussion. Original sources I read no...Interesting discussion. Original sources I read noted that most Polish beers till early 19c. was primarily wheat based. As we all know styles do evolve and will not always stick to one formula. As we know Grodziskie was brewed till early 1990s. During last years of production it is true that they also brewed 12 Plato beer. It was not all wheat either. So on that account 12 Plato beer from Grodzisk existed . The 7-8 Plato one is just sample from older days 1900-1920s. As mentioned above slight smoke character came from traditional method of drying malt that is all. Oldest Grodziskie beers most likely did not use hops at all. That started in Poland in mid 17c. So yes primary malt choice would be wheat but I don't think it is necessary to be all wheat. I brewed Grodziskie with House Ales( in Toronto) using arpox.3/4 wheat , 1/4 pils malt. Used clean finishing yeast and Lublin like hops (same alpha, beta etc). We brewed to get as high carbonation as possible (goal low 3s). We kept ph low. Lagered for 5 weeks. It was fairly hard to pour from tap , sparkly 4.1% brew , slight tartness with smoky walls and nice hop top end. One final note. I know that Grazter term is dominant due to popularity in Germany as well that Poland was under communism for 50 years but for sake of accuracy we should refer as Grodziskie when speaking of style. Jopen Grodziskie from description sits 100% square in traditional early 20c Grodziskie and is absolutely correct in its approach. More modern versions could be higher in alcohol and like mine be with soft golden malt as well (works together nice). That my 5 cents.Radek Kliberhttp://www.ratebeer.com/beer/house-ales-x-kliber-gratzer-ale/159937/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-32568357814207204382013-03-09T00:13:45.683-08:002013-03-09T00:13:45.683-08:00Duffbowl,
because I don't know who the auther...Duffbowl,<br /><br />because I don't know who the auther was and it was written in English for an American publication.<br /><br />I need a very good reason to ignore Schönfeld, who was the leading expert on Germn top-fermented styles. He says 100% wheat malt. The history of Grätzer, written in the 1890's says 100% wheat. Several other German and Polish sources say the same thing. <br /><br />Several sources I know to be reliable say 100% wheat. Gary's source is the only one to say something different. Therefore the weight of evidence is in favour of 100% wheat. It's as simple as that.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-42644145690343128042013-03-09T00:13:17.811-08:002013-03-09T00:13:17.811-08:00Duffbowl,
because I don't know who the auther...Duffbowl,<br /><br />because I don't know who the auther was and it was written in English for an American publication.<br /><br />I need a very good reason to ignore Schönfeld, who was the leading expert on Germn top-fermented styles. He says 100% wheat malt. The history of Grätzer, written in the 1890's says 100% wheat. Several other German and Polish sources say the same thing. <br /><br />Several sources I know to be reliable say 100% wheat. Gary's source is the only one to say something different. Therefore the weight of evidence is in favour of 100% wheat. It's as simple as that.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-53216822665475196082013-03-08T15:35:04.974-08:002013-03-08T15:35:04.974-08:00Ron,
Without starting a heated exchange, can I as...Ron,<br /><br />Without starting a heated exchange, can I ask why you're dismissing Gary's sources out of hand?<br /><br />I'm not taking one side nor other, but looking for clarity.<br /><br />ChrisDuffbowlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09329619455075743185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-66499346302153039422013-03-07T09:33:04.469-08:002013-03-07T09:33:04.469-08:00I homebrew a version of my local indigenous beer. ...I homebrew a version of my local indigenous beer. I call it a Kentucky Common, but honestly, it doesnt really match up with any of the historical KY Common recipes I have seen.<br /><br />If anyone asked though, I would tell them its what I think KY Common would be like today if it hadnt gone extinct with prohibition and had continued to develop the last 90 years.<br /><br />Does that mean its really "inspired" by KY Common? *shrug*, I dont care, as a Louisville brewer Ive got as much dibs on the name as anyone.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07290967499580060041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-1003804632873712292013-03-06T23:52:10.241-08:002013-03-06T23:52:10.241-08:00Jeff, they've effectively invented a new type ...Jeff, they've effectively invented a new type of beer with only a vague connection to the beer once made in Grodzisk/Grätz. "Inspired by Grätzer" would be a more honest description.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-16007587449546107552013-03-06T09:23:49.246-08:002013-03-06T09:23:49.246-08:00A commenter on my blog pointed out that the BA'...A commenter on my blog pointed out that the BA's style guidelines are designed for the use of modern commercial breweries and so fidelity to history is a secondary matter. Fair enough. My question is why they gave an ahistorical description of the sensory qualities of the beer. There's no reason modern breweries couldn't make vibrantly hoppy, smoky gratzers using standard techniques. Weird.Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-54608592074123763572013-03-06T08:51:52.665-08:002013-03-06T08:51:52.665-08:00Ron,
Brilliant! I enjoy reading your rants on Brew...Ron,<br />Brilliant! I enjoy reading your rants on Brewers Association as much as getting factual information from your research. <br />Keep it up!<br /><br />Lady Luck Brewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07337941627482137119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-70356350295631729262013-03-06T06:51:24.357-08:002013-03-06T06:51:24.357-08:00JollyRodger - Im sure you have got it exactly righ...JollyRodger - Im sure you have got it exactly right. The commercial breweries entering "gratzer" into competition probably look a lot like their description.<br /><br />Its very similar to what the bjcp did with Scottish ales. They made categories to fit what homebrewers were making and historical accuracy be damned.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07290967499580060041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-29578462735792356792013-03-05T18:09:03.702-08:002013-03-05T18:09:03.702-08:00Oh - here's where your readers can give the BA...Oh - here's where your readers can give the BA what-for on the topic: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/2013_Beer_Style_Guidelines_Update_Survey<br /><br />Cheers!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18433992121241638535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-49175962640431508632013-03-05T17:32:37.129-08:002013-03-05T17:32:37.129-08:00Ron, I think the only way to combat this atrocity ...Ron, I think the only way to combat this atrocity is to have your friends at Pretty Things brew one and then come back to Boston as soon as possible to drink it at Deep Ellum with us.<br /><br />I'll buy another book or two I promise.Mark Andersenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151857584483533199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-6349085992617194792013-03-05T12:36:15.095-08:002013-03-05T12:36:15.095-08:00I'm willing to allow the description if there&...I'm willing to allow the description if there's a historical precedent. One thing I've learned from reading your blog, Ron, is that these beers tended to vary over space and time. So it's possible that the beer BA describes was once brewed. I'd just like to 1) hear where they came up with the description, and 2) understand why they went for a clearly unusual (or nonexistent, depending) example of the style.<br /><br />I assume it has something to do with creating a description modern breweries can work with, but one wonders why they'd bother. Jeff Alworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930119177544342495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-70789602735012927142013-03-05T12:29:47.122-08:002013-03-05T12:29:47.122-08:00Oblivious - I don't think they're referenc...Oblivious - I don't think they're referencing BeerAdvocate so much as their own competition entries. The Brewers Association tends to add a new style to the guidelines when a significant number of similar beers are being entered into the competition. They're probably referencing more what their members are making than going off any particular website. There's probably been a small trend of smokey, sour beers being entered across the multiple categories of sour beer, smoked beer and barrel aged categories that they decided to make a pseudo historical catch all that fits them in. It's all about giving away medals for marketing more than historical accuracy...JollyRodgernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-961254253217225942013-03-05T09:13:40.987-08:002013-03-05T09:13:40.987-08:00Ron, I do not agree that for the last 200 years th...Ron, I do not agree that for the last 200 years the mash has been all-wheat when Theodore Schuster's paper in 1898 submitted to a learned brewers' review stated that 1/3rd barley malt was being used. He said that and Wahl & Henius relied on it clearly for their statement. <br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-85099188545176831082013-03-05T09:08:58.115-08:002013-03-05T09:08:58.115-08:00Jim, good of you to supply that, thanks. Clearly ...Jim, good of you to supply that, thanks. Clearly barley malt was used at the time in the brewing and supports Wahl & Henius's statement. <br /><br />Schuster said the use was "of late years", a rather vague statement, but I have no trouble accepting that for some considerable time before that barley malt was not used. But it appears to have been used in the 1600's if I understood your researches correctly albeit not (apparently) in the 1450's when the style emerged.<br /><br />I would infer that at some times, barley malt was used, and at other times, not. I agree with your statement towards the end of your paper that no hard and fast rules should be drawn.<br /><br />Maybe it had to do with the kind of wheat that was available at certain times, perhaps in some periods the smoked wheat malt wouldn't self-convert, who knows..<br /><br />In any case, I think this shows that BA is not being unreasonable in suggesting that barley malt can be used optionally in the mash, that's all.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-13508576355004365412013-03-05T09:03:58.188-08:002013-03-05T09:03:58.188-08:00Oblivious, the one I was involved in, Jopen's,...Oblivious, the one I was involved in, Jopen's, says 4% ABV in the label, but is really 3.3%. It was brewed to the proper gravity of just under 8º Plato.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-52161637499536450832013-03-05T09:02:47.620-08:002013-03-05T09:02:47.620-08:00Gary, Schönefled, in "Die Herstellung Obergäh...Gary, Schönefled, in "Die Herstellung Obergähriger Biere" says it's from 100% wheat malt. I'd need a very good reason to disagree with him.<br /><br />Just looked up another good source: "Geschichte des Grätzer Bieres" by A. Warschauer, 1893. <br /><br />It seems apart from a period in the late 17th century, it's been a 100% wheat beer.<br /><br />1601 - undated but appears to refer to the early 18th century<br />1660 5 bushels wheat malt, 2 bushels barley malt<br />1686 6 bushels wheat malt, 1 bushel barley malt<br />18th century 100% wheat malt<br />1843 100% wheat malt<br /><br />Note that the maximum percantage of barley is 40%.<br /><br />It doesn't surprise me that they sometimes used a bit of barley back then. They'd have used what they could get and if there wasn't enough wheat would have used barley instead. <br /><br />However, in the last 200 years, it's been all wheat.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-25395391133246178542013-03-05T08:52:55.543-08:002013-03-05T08:52:55.543-08:00@Matthew,
I think you'll find that 'Black...@Matthew,<br /><br />I think you'll find that 'Black IPA' is dealt with under 'American-style Black Ale' on p.8 of the guidelines, along with 'American style Imperial Stout'.Alistair Reecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15929927359428659775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-12280294367598653202013-03-05T08:26:38.580-08:002013-03-05T08:26:38.580-08:00Gary, here's a link to the page from the Ameri...Gary, here's a link to the page from the American Brewers Review I took the quote from: http://pspd.org.pl/uploads/grodziskie/graetzer-schuster-1898.pdf<br /><br />JimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-75956992356634859372013-03-05T08:03:55.895-08:002013-03-05T08:03:55.895-08:00Ron, with respect, that may be your judgment, but ...Ron, with respect, that may be your judgment, but it doesn't have to be BA's, sorry.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-23876093600972537022013-03-05T08:03:41.089-08:002013-03-05T08:03:41.089-08:00Having worked in Kolobrzeg in the early 1990s, I a...Having worked in Kolobrzeg in the early 1990s, I am also aware it is important to be clear about what we are describing as Poland and Germany at various points in time. This is a map apparently from the 1890s. My city was then Kolberg right under Bornholm Island on the Baltic.<br /><br />http://www.thebreman.org/exhibitions/online/1000kids/Jews_in_Germany.jpgAlanhttp://agoodbeerblog.comnoreply@blogger.com