tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post7392482189016399965..comments2024-03-27T20:07:51.303-07:00Comments on Shut up about Barclay Perkins: Notes on Three ThreadsRon Pattinsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-53217073054207407952010-04-16T05:14:31.776-07:002010-04-16T05:14:31.776-07:00Although now in "Older Posts", I'd a...Although now in "Older Posts", I'd ask you, Ron, to please insert this last comment from me, to mention that I just noticed that the Denneston essay is also included in the bibliography of Peter Mathias' landmark book, "The Brewing Industry in England, 1700-1830" (published I believe in 1959). Denneston in the bibliography is spelled "Denniston". <br /><br />I have not been able as yet to check whether Dr. Mathias discusses thread variations (i.e., those other than three) in the text of his book, to the best of my recollection he does not. Peter Clark quoted in his history of the English alehouse book the references to "...two thrids, three thrids, four thrids and six thrids" from the Denneston essay, rendering "thrid" as "thread" in each case (from what I can tell from reading partial views of Dr. Clark's book online).<br /><br />The full title of the essay by E. Denneston (this spelling appears on the title page) is, "A Scheme For Advancing and Improving The Ancient and Noble Revenue of Excise Upon Beer, Ale and Other Branches". <br /><br />Perhaps future researchers and beer writers will address why five thrids/threads was not mentioned by Denneston. Perhaps the Fortune of War was simply out.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-48565516519381149982010-04-13T20:07:26.594-07:002010-04-13T20:07:26.594-07:00And I must say again: the current crop of beer and...And I must say again: the current crop of beer and brewing industry historians are doing superb work. One can't even think of making progress in this area without absorbing and understanding what they have done.<br /><br />My original interest in beer history was for one reason only, one that I think still comes through in many of the comments I've made on this site and others: I am interested to know what porter and other beer tasted like in the eras under discussion. That was and is the spur of most of my thinking.<br /><br />Gary<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-32571155073461837702010-04-13T17:51:27.844-07:002010-04-13T17:51:27.844-07:00Thanks Graham for your kind words.
I did a lot of ...Thanks Graham for your kind words.<br />I did a lot of searching in Google Books and some other publicly available databases. If you do that using different key-word combinations a lot can come up. The all-important Denneston essay was something I did not find: James Sumner told me about it as I recounted earlier.<br /><br />The weaving terminology part came from just thinking about thread and stitch-back (and malt-worm, which I first read about in Martyn Cornell's books) and then doing different kinds of search combinations. The brewing-loom term came up by accident: I was looking for information on salt in beer. <br /><br />I really just spent a lot of time searching and thinking, that's all.<br /><br />I know many of my ideas are open to question - and I stated the weaving connection is still speculative - but I wanted just to put out my thoughts and open up hopefully some discussion.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-46917534700384887722010-04-13T12:26:49.904-07:002010-04-13T12:26:49.904-07:00This three threads thing is worthy of further disc...This three threads thing is worthy of further discussion. It is a shame that this is about to drop off the radar.<br /><br />Although I do not necessarily agree with some of the conclusions that Gary put forward, he has pointed out, quite positively, that we have not got a bloody clue as to what three-threads really was.<br /><br />This three-threads thing is fundamental to understanding the history of beer. I have never believed that three-threads was the forerunner of porter, for reasons too complicated and too controversial to go into here, but nevertheless it has its place in history. Writers and, so called, historians have taken this three-threads thing at face value without questioning it, I have done the same, but Gary has shown that there is a lot more to it than the folklore supposes.<br /><br />Getting to grips as to what three threads, or any number of threads, really was, is fundamental. <br /><br />Any number of original researcher on here should have said to themselves: "Hang on, this is quite important" - but it has been allowed to drop. Shame!<br /><br />This is a good case for Patto setting up a proper discussion forum so that important things can be thrashed out, without dropping off the radar prematurely.<br /><br />I'd even set up a forum for him, but methinks he's probably an IT professional anyway, and can do it for himself. I do not suppose that there are many ex-pat Brit daffodil growers or Brit water engineers in Holland. <br /><br />Gary Gillman:<br />Well Gary, may I thank you personally for the various documents you have pointed us to. How you find them is a mystery to me; I never have the same sort of success whenever I search. I can only assume that you have witchcraft on your side.<br /><br />One way or another, some of those documents (those that I can get at) have improved or modified my knowledge for the better (well, actually, considerably).<br /><br />Thank you.Graham Wheelernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-43856971081220883632010-04-11T05:02:40.504-07:002010-04-11T05:02:40.504-07:00Due to a comment privately received, it was sugges...Due to a comment privately received, it was suggested that the early porter, based on late 1700's published analyses, might have been 6.5-7% ABV. My suggestion that 3 threads/first porter was 4-5% ABV would be low in this light. <br /><br />My logic in selecting that range was twofold: I took 10% as the norm for 6 threads - thinking in practice it couldn't go much higher - and halved it. Also in my mind was the possible lower alcohol yields of circa-1722, when porter by many accounts was not "improved" until much later in the century through better malts and longer standing.<br /><br />However, of course 6 threads might have been 12% ABV and anyway the strengths may not have been proportional over the thread range as I had assumed. Early porter may indeed have been around 6% ABV, and perhaps brown stout then was 8%. <br /><br />This is an area where one must speculate... Probably too the early entires did differ in their ABV.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-45063487805240497462010-04-10T15:11:10.927-07:002010-04-10T15:11:10.927-07:00To assist readers further, here is the Sorbiere/Ki...To assist readers further, here is the Sorbiere/King book from 1698:<br /><br />http://books.google.ca/books?id=PBtcAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=A+Journey+to+London+1698&cd=4#v=onepage&q&f=false<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-42345906305802492662010-04-10T14:36:29.862-07:002010-04-10T14:36:29.862-07:00That is certainly the first I have read about a po...That is certainly the first I have read about a possible connection with weaving terminology. Thank you for this. I am brewing Ron's, Kristen's and Barclay Perkins' 1848 TT tomorrow, and this will serve as some fine inspiration.Mark Oregonensisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-5824422953164811392010-04-10T06:56:43.977-07:002010-04-10T06:56:43.977-07:00"1698 book by William King"
I don't..."1698 book by William King"<br /><br />I don't remember writing that book.<br /><br />Bill King aka 'First Stater'Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14256078606152011585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-9546433696894399982010-04-10T03:13:30.929-07:002010-04-10T03:13:30.929-07:00Ah, I have only skimmed this post as yet, but it&#...Ah, I have only skimmed this post as yet, but it's already been helpful in understanding how the tax scam of mixing strong and small beer worked, something that was puzzling me reading another text.Rob Sterowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07870233673933087794noreply@blogger.com