tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post9189393420015709570..comments2024-03-28T06:20:10.699-07:00Comments on Shut up about Barclay Perkins: Munich (day 1)Ron Pattinsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-28681544646470389862009-10-07T03:10:48.400-07:002009-10-07T03:10:48.400-07:00Gary, I stick by my earlier observation that beer ...Gary, I stick by my earlier observation that beer is seen differently on either side of the Atlantic.<br /><br />In Europe, beer is a sensual experience much like eating a meal or listening to nice music. I have been in many, many pubs over the years and have never once heard anyone attempting to analyse a beer (other than the occasional foreign tourist, perhaps). Frankly, I don't see how analysis and enjoyment can be compatible, but perhaps that's just me.<br /><br />On your other point, it seems to me that there are two kinds of breweries: those that focus on marketing and those that focus on producing a well-crafted product. If a region has mostly market-oriented brewers, I agree that consumer pressure is necessary. However, if the majority of brewers are of the artisanal kind, such as in parts of Germany, Czech Republic and, to a lesser extent, in Belgium and the Netherlands, then consumer pressure is not necessary.Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-31157477849298286122009-10-07T01:51:22.663-07:002009-10-07T01:51:22.663-07:00Kristen, they didn't use to have gravity-serve...Kristen, they didn't use to have gravity-served beer at the Ayinger pub. I would have dropped by if I'd known that.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-64671951991303706552009-10-06T12:10:07.831-07:002009-10-06T12:10:07.831-07:00Mike, I was trying simply to draw out the implicat...Mike, I was trying simply to draw out the implications of what Ron stated in response to my question. I am not judging any traditions or saying one is better than another, just trying to understand them. <br /><br />I do believe though that on a long-term basis, without sustained pressure from consumers and interest groups to maintain quality and (especially) diversity, a beer culture worthy of the name may suffer over time. This happened both in the U.S. and Canada but consumer-driven developments partly reversed it.<br /><br />Also, the viewpoint of analysis is not inconsistent with enjoyment.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-41296142284053923532009-10-06T10:54:17.947-07:002009-10-06T10:54:17.947-07:00Gary, I think you are over-analysing a bit. There ...Gary, I think you are over-analysing a bit. There is, in my experience, a very large gap between how people in the US/UK (and perhaps some Canadians) look at beer and the way it is seen locally in Europe. For one thing, there seems to compulsive classification by the English-speakers, but little to none by Dutch and German speakers.<br /><br />Blogging is also a good measure. There are hundreds, thousands (?) of beer blogs in the US and some in Canada and the UK, that discuss beer as if it were an enzyme or genetic DNA. Here, there are far fewer blogs, but they look at beer as something to enjoy, not to study. Here is one example: http://blog.seniorennet.be/bierblog/<br />and here's another one: http://trappistbier.wordpress.com/<br /><br />There are some things that should be enjoyed without an instruction book. Beer is one of those things.Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-8143271532456890332009-10-06T09:27:24.609-07:002009-10-06T09:27:24.609-07:00Enthralling account as always, Ron. The way you b...Enthralling account as always, Ron. The way you build up for the next installment leaves me longing for tomorrow. I particularly enjoy your erudite way of putting things: The trauma will stay with me forever, clinging like an overenthusiastic fart.<br /><br />Brilliant!Andrew Elliotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00261171596820050853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-81184989538390518182009-10-06T09:10:07.068-07:002009-10-06T09:10:07.068-07:00There was a word missing in a paragraph of my prev...There was a word missing in a paragraph of my previous comment, and the sense got blunted. Here is the sentence as I intended it:<br /><br />"I would think in other words consumers are drinking the beers - fortunately many are superb - that happen to be available at this stage of this long-term process, rather than "driving" the choice to any significant degree".<br /><br />.....<br /><br />I have visited a couple of times the HB outpost in Las Vegas, Nevada, I understand it is owned by the Munich house. I enjoyed it, and the food was excellent. The beers, all imported I was told from HB in Germany, were good but not really special in my view. I'll have to try the original HB at some point and will judge then.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-77337002942240601932009-10-06T08:08:39.567-07:002009-10-06T08:08:39.567-07:00That is very interesting, thanks. It shows I thin...That is very interesting, thanks. It shows I think that the luxury of choice still existing is not really something intentional, and sustained consciously, but rather is the present state of a long-term historical process. <br /><br />I.e., at one time, there were many thousands of breweries, making innumerable types of beer. This happened due to isolation and primitive technology.<br /><br />In the 1800's, industrialization started the long-term decline in the number of breweries. It also "improved" beer: the lager revolution, notably, did this (at least from a certain standpoint). So an association developed between capital investment and quality - tending ever farther from artisan notions in other words...<br /><br />So today, while there are still 2000 breweries or more there, this represents a historical survival, is how I read it, more than anything consciously intended to maintain high quality and choice. This is not to say the brewers do not take great pride in what they make, I am sure they do. I am speaking at the consumer level.<br /><br />I would think in other words consumers are drinking the beers - fortunately still available are superb - that happen to be available at this stage of this long-term process, rather than "driving" the choice to any significant degree. This is different to what has happened in England and North America in the last 30 years. <br /><br />(I suppose one could make the case that a level of "connoisseurship" exists but is not articulated in the way familiar to craft beer fans in England and the U.S. - that is a possibility I think, but in any case its effects seem limited).<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-11958330337789041842009-10-06T08:08:21.690-07:002009-10-06T08:08:21.690-07:00I love the weiss brauhaus menu. You can order bott...I love the weiss brauhaus menu. You can order bottles of Eisbock to go, edelbrand, playing cards and for 10,000 euro, an authentic maipole. :)<br /><br />Ron,<br /><br />Suprised you missed Ayinger directly across the street from the HB. They serve beer by gravity all the time. Great place to watch the pissheads get chucked out of the HB for trying to steal the MaB.Kristen Englandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05212694853976179911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-81502649823281263082009-10-06T07:01:06.122-07:002009-10-06T07:01:06.122-07:00Gary, Germans tend to drink beer rather than discu...Gary, Germans tend to drink beer rather than discuss it. They take their beer very much for granted.<br /><br />I'm not sure if any locals drink the Eisbock. I assume they stock it just because they stock all Schneider's regular products. And because they'll get a fair few foreigners drop by.<br /><br />Most Germans give beer very little thought. Their approach is very different to the North American one. Beer is just part of everyday life, like bread or sausage.<br /><br />As for choice, there's also a different concept in Germany. The pubs in Munich don't duplicate styles. So you won't see two different versions of Helles, or several different Pils in a single bar. You get one of each type. I'm very comfortable with this approach. I'd rather a pub loook after one Helles, one Pils, one Dunkles and one Weizen properly, rather than sell a dozen indifferent versions of each style.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-8363284448172845432009-10-06T06:49:52.715-07:002009-10-06T06:49:52.715-07:00Ron, an absorbing account (no pun intended), thank...Ron, an absorbing account (no pun intended), thanks.<br /><br />I am curious, when you engage with locals there, do they comment on the quality of beer and show any knowledge of the type an English or American beer fan would have? Or do they just take for granted the range of beers available? There must be local preferences, not just amongst breweries but brands and types. (E.g., I wonder who locally would order that Eisbock you mentioned, is it just because it is strong, or is it considered more a "connoisseur" beer the way it would here?).<br /><br />Is there a level of beer appreciation in other words in connoisseur terms (for lack of a better word)? Or is the luxury of choice that still exists (for those who know how to find it, at any rate) in a sense an historical accident?<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-75528389714670633602009-10-06T06:19:52.399-07:002009-10-06T06:19:52.399-07:00Knut, it was only really the Hofbräuhaus where the...Knut, it was only really the Hofbräuhaus where the service was terrible. <br /><br />I found it quite nice being in town when everyone was dressed up.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-41958429210112804712009-10-06T05:49:20.413-07:002009-10-06T05:49:20.413-07:00It's reports like this which confirms my resol...It's reports like this which confirms my resolution to find other times of the year to visit Munich!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com