tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post8408440093532656062..comments2024-03-28T13:20:29.156-07:00Comments on Shut up about Barclay Perkins: Let's Brew Wednesday - 1928 Barclay Perkins KK (bottling)Ron Pattinsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-4463423755296734782010-03-20T10:20:48.441-07:002010-03-20T10:20:48.441-07:00Paul! said...
My apologies if I'm the billion...Paul! said...<br /><br /><i>My apologies if I'm the billionth person to ask, but I can't seem to figure out how to make no.2 brewing sugar? Ive' searched the blog and have a good handle on inverting sugar as well as making the ubiquitous no.3, yet am stumped on the no.2?</i><br /><br />If you can make No.3, you can make No.2 It is just half the colour. Brewer's invert is inverted cane sugar plus about 5% cane molasses (for flavour), caramelised to the specified colour (65EBC for No2.) Invert sugar caramelises at a much lower temperature (110°C) than sucrose (or at least the fructose component of it does). <br /><br />The problem with making your own is getting the colour right without the proper measuring equipment.<br /><br />Quite frankly, the 1% caramel is hell of a lot of caramel and it will overwhelm the colour contribution of No.2 invert. <br /><br />we have no real idea of the colour of the caramel that they used, but typically it would be 33,000 EBC today. <br /><br />64 grams of 33,000 caramel is going to add something like 111 EBC to 19 litres of beer. That is darker than the quoted EBC for the recipe.<br /><br />If you are going to add caramel, and you are concerned about the flavour contribution of No.2 invert, it would be easier to use a dark cane sugar that has a high molasses content, such as Demerara or Muscovado, and ignore the colour contribution.<br /><br />A potential problem with caramelised colourants is producing a stable colourant. That is, one that stays in solution and does not settle out over time. All to do with ionic charges and all that jazz. There is no guarantee that culinary caramels will be stable in beer, or home made colourants for that matter.Graham Wheelernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-11024634935449058872010-03-19T23:38:05.365-07:002010-03-19T23:38:05.365-07:00My apologies if I'm the billionth person to as...My apologies if I'm the billionth person to ask, but I can't seem to figure out how to make no.2 brewing sugar? Ive' searched the blog and have a good handle on inverting sugar as well as making the ubiquitous no.3, yet am stumped on the no.2?<br /> I love the blog and would like to make this beer EXACTLY as it was brewed originally. Any help would be great.Paul!https://www.blogger.com/profile/02305373848929479630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-1360024670323360522010-03-19T07:10:40.155-07:002010-03-19T07:10:40.155-07:00StuartP,
Caramel was, and still is, used for colou...StuartP,<br />Caramel was, and still is, used for colour adjustment in commercial beers, but it was much worse in Dave Line's day. In my books I carefully selected the recipes so that only those that I regarded as quality grists were included. Any that used caramel to change one beer to look like another type of beer, or used large amounts of caramel, was excluded, although this isn't as common as it was twenty or thirty years ago. The quality of British beer has increased substantially since the brewers have found themselves under competition.<br /><br />You will observe in some of the pale recipes that I include tiny amounts of chocolate or black malt, 50 grammes or thereabouts. This is to adjust the colour to that specified by the brewery.<br /><br />Indeed, since Europe made some types of caramel illegal, and restricted the others in the amounts that can be used, many brewers have switched to using concentrated, black malt extract for colour adjustment. So we have, in a way, gone full circle back to 1817.Graham Wheelernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-21256558353365706172010-03-19T04:27:22.871-07:002010-03-19T04:27:22.871-07:00"It seems that the last of those options is m..."It seems that the last of those options is most likely. If their brewers came up through the apprenticeship system, they would only know the Barclay Perkins Way."<br /><br />Its what Rochefort did with the new ish brewer Gumer santosOblivioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04184794716327407609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-68541220309523402132010-03-19T03:27:17.490-07:002010-03-19T03:27:17.490-07:00Graham, there's actually considerable variatio...Graham, there's actually considerable variation between the different Barclay Perkins beers, both in terms of ingredients and brewing methods. And they certainly weren't alone in throwing sugar in everything. <br /><br />Whitbread grists aren't that different: always some foreign 6-row, always sugar. The only real difference is that they didn't use maize or other adjuncts.<br /><br />As for the caramel being pointless, I have to disagree. They had very specific target colour values for all their beers and the caramel was used to hit them. If you look closely at the Imperial Stout log that includes carmel, you'll see that it was actually used not in the Stout, but in the Porter being party-gyled with it.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-1067428667462586792010-03-19T03:11:16.029-07:002010-03-19T03:11:16.029-07:00With all this sugar and caramel being thrown into ...With all this sugar and caramel being thrown into historical brews, they are starting to look like the homebrew recipes from dear old David Line rather than more modern guides such as Mr Wheeler. <br />So the wheel turns full circle and we're back where we started. <br />I'm coming to the conclusion that there's nothing new in the brewing world - now I'm sure that's never been said before.StuartPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13748038209546648459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-58354247889994339572010-03-18T12:20:27.761-07:002010-03-18T12:20:27.761-07:00zythophile said...
What interests me about these b...zythophile said...<br /><i>What interests me about these beers is what the use of brewing sugars is meant to replicate from the original</i><br /><br />To be gentle to B.P., in the paler beers, the sugar was probably to reduce the haze potential of the imported barley. It was probably an economy measure too. You will observe that the quantity of sugar used in most recipes roughly matches the quantity of imported barley. It does not have much significance in dark beers though. <br /><br />The whole concept of using such poor quality imported barley was based upon a diastatic power myth, which emerged soon after they were first able to measure diastatic power. It was generally balanced with an equal amount of sugar in the paler beers.<br /><br />High nitrogen barley does have a high diastatic power, but the consequence of that is a high haze potential. Nitrogen / protein is responsible for both. They were, in fact, throwing out the baby with the bath water, and when they realised this the concept was pooh-poohed, probably before the time of this recipe.<br /><br />Of course, if the imported malt was much cheaper than indigenous malt, then there is a reason for its continued use. <br /><br />When I visited the Gales Brewery for a day, about 1982, and "assisted" in putting a brew through, they were still adding diastatic malt extract to their mash based upon the myth that ordinary malt did not have the power to self-convert leave alone convert any adjuncts. It has plenty of such power, but it shows how long these practices can survive.<br /><br />I have often pondered why Barclay Perkins got up to strange practices at times. For example, they always used caramel, whether the beer needed it or not; they always use sugar, whether the beer could withstand it or not, sometimes some of the ingredients are pointless; they added hops at odd times and they very often performed some unusual "marrying" at the end. Much of their procedure was well behind the state of the art for the day.<br /><br />I have come to the conclusion that there must have been the Barclay Perkins Way. Every beer used the same standard modus operandi or crib sheet. Then you have to ask why the brewers did not think outside of the box. It is not that the science was not available to them, or the experience of other brewers. <br /><br />Where did they get their brewers from? Did they bring them in from outside? Did they send them to university? Or did they come up through what we would call the apprenticeship system?<br /><br />It seems that the last of those options is most likely. If their brewers came up through the apprenticeship system, they would only know the Barclay Perkins Way. The following apprentices would also be taught the B.P. Way, and so on. It could go on for generations. It could be that the guvnors were such tyrants that they were not allowed to change anything on fear of death, or worse. By the 1930s it would seem that they were desperately in need of the appliance of a bit of science. <br /><br />The Whitbread grists were better and more sensible judging from what I have seen of them, don't know about their brewing practices though. I would expect Whitbread to have been at the forefront of science appliance though, once they'd bought themselves a microscope of course.Graham Wheelernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-66529092225374008652010-03-18T09:13:15.090-07:002010-03-18T09:13:15.090-07:00Adrian,
Re sinemar...yes, kinda. Its actually qui...Adrian,<br /><br />Re sinemar...yes, kinda. Its actually quite easy to find caramel (burnt sugar) colorant. Most Asian grocers have it. <br /><br />A 12oz bottle costs around $2.50. This one here is very good and cheap.<br /><br />http://sams247.net/p10/BLUE-MOUNTAIN-BURNT-SUGAR-12-OZ./product_info.html?ref=3&affiliate_banner_id=1Kristen Englandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05212694853976179911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-22267568006545717252010-03-18T08:48:59.727-07:002010-03-18T08:48:59.727-07:00Zythophile, the London brewers just used sugar in ...Zythophile, the London brewers just used sugar in everything. That's just how they brewed. Quite probably it was a reaction to what the public wanted, that is beers that weren't too "heavy".Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-29810714755107350962010-03-18T08:27:07.596-07:002010-03-18T08:27:07.596-07:00What interests me about these beers is what the us...What interests me about these beers is what the use of brewing sugars is meant to replicate from the <i>original</i> (ie brewed at Burton) Burton Ales, both the early 19th century and the 18th century (exported to Russia) kinds. What was it, if anything, about the taste/character of Burton Ale that Barclay Perkins and other London brewers could only get by using brewing sugars, sugars which the Burton brewers, at least originally (ie before the 1840s) wouldn't have been able to use?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-34789975441019310502010-03-18T08:20:35.804-07:002010-03-18T08:20:35.804-07:00I know the notion of a "Black IPA" is do...I know the notion of a "Black IPA" is downright blasphemous to some, but I have to wonder if, at least in taste, a Burton Ale like this one is similar if not the same thing. <br /><br />Last night I opened up my last bottle of Stone's 11th Anniversary Ale (2007) and it was divine. Bittersweet and creamy with a distinct rum raisin sweetness in the nose. And pitch black with almost no roast flavor. <br /><br />This question is for Kristen: Can Sinimar be used in place of caramel colorant or will that throw off the flavor profile? What about using Carafa Special in the mash?<br /><br />Here are Stone's notes for XI:<br /><br />Stone 11th Anniversary Ale Recipe<br /><br />Grain Bill:<br /><br />90% pale malt<br /><br />5% 60°L Crystal<br /><br />5% Weyermann Carafa III Special<br /><br /><br />OG target is 20.5°P (1.082 SG) Terminal Gravity target is 4°P (1.016 SG)<br /><br /><br />Hops:<br /><br />Bittering at start of boil: 100% Chinook<br /><br />Flavor hops added at end of boil or whirlpool: 50/50 blend of Simcoe and Amarillo<br /><br />Target 120 IBU’s.<br /><br />Ferment with good ale yeast. We used our house yeast.<br /><br />Dry-Hop with 50/50 blend of Simcoe and Amarillo, use LOTS! (we used 1 ½ pounds per barrel).<br /><br />Good luck and enjoy. Post up if you brew it, let us know how it is.Adrian Avgerinosnoreply@blogger.com