tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post4248406077186351471..comments2024-03-28T13:20:29.156-07:00Comments on Shut up about Barclay Perkins: het GemaalRon Pattinsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-25443930370682416002010-09-05T12:46:51.612-07:002010-09-05T12:46:51.612-07:00@Ed Carson: The sources used to design the BJCP Gu...@Ed Carson: The sources used to design the BJCP Guidelines and the Brewer's Association guidelines are no secret. The BA guidelines list their sources in the introduction. The BJCP guidelines list most of their sources in the "Exam Study Guide" available on their web site. <br /><br />The BJCP guidelines are developed by a committee of amateur beer aficionados mostly based in the United States. They're heavily influenced by the works of Michael Jackson (especially "World Guide to Beer" and "Complete Guide to Beer"), and to a lesser extent the works of Fred Eckhardt, Roger Protz and the various writers in the Brewers Association "Brewing in Styles" book series, with a few nods to historical beer sources such as Wahl & Henius.<br /><br />The Brewers Association Guidelines are largely the creation of Charlie Papazian. They are are heavily influenced by "Professor Anton Piendl's comprehensive work published in the German Brauindustrie magazine through the years 1982 to 1994, from the series "Biere Aus Aller Welt." (Quote taken from the introduction to the BA guidelines.)<br /><br />Beyond that, Mr. Papazian does some research into current brewing practice, but because he has editorial control, he is much freer to add, delete and alter styles as he sees fit. He doesn't make stuff up; but he's a very imaginative man who likes to place things in tidy categories and has compelling commercial reasons to do so.<br /><br />In both cases, the guidelines are designed to regulate brewing competitions. For that reason, they are just as arbitrary as the standards for judging dog breeds. They are as much a tool, and an artifact of their time, as broadsheet listing beers sold by a 19th century London brewer.Thomas Barnesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-61128191688184354912010-09-05T12:27:50.723-07:002010-09-05T12:27:50.723-07:00Ron: I think it's unfair to call the creators ...Ron: I think it's unfair to call the creators of style guidelines "style Nazis," since that implies rigidity, intolerance and dogmatism I've yet to see in anyone in the beer community, except for half-informed "homebrew twats" and people who complain about "style Nazis."<br /><br />It's easy to lob insults, but more productive to use more peaceful means of communication.<br /><br />Were you to approach Mr. Papazian with well-documented information about <i>current</i> brewing practice, he would probably change the BA guidelines in light of your information and thank you for it.<br /><br />Were you to approach the BJCP style committee with documentable evidence of mistakes in the current guidelines, they'd fix those mistakes in the next edition.<br /><br />It is an unarguable fact that both sets of style guidelines miss a lot and contain inaccuracies - especially regarding European beer styles. It's likely a fair cop that they are written by people who are badly educated about beer history and who don't do enough independent research. But, don't mistake ignorance and honest errors for malice!Thomas Barnesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-89927567180208721882010-08-30T10:26:41.395-07:002010-08-30T10:26:41.395-07:00Michael Jackson referred to Burton Ale (the pre-pa...Michael Jackson referred to Burton Ale (the pre-pale ale beer of the area) in the 1978 World Guide to Beer. It's there - albeit not developed the way he did his other rubrics, because Burton had withered as a separate style. To the extent it still existed, he covered it in the Barley Wine chapter.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-15406621474031053212010-08-30T10:21:35.839-07:002010-08-30T10:21:35.839-07:00@Gary, I'm not just talking about domestics. I...@Gary, I'm not just talking about domestics. I'm also referencing imports. A large number of those were German,but also British beer like Bass and Whitbread.(Bottled of course)<br /> And Michael Jackson's enthusiam for the World of Belgian Beer is probably why there are 47 million "Belgian" beers in the style guidelines and there are 2 Czech ones.<br />@Ron, The Robert Smith Brewing Co. of Philadelphia in 1905 compared its ale to the finest Burton ales in its advertising. Also, I think Burton got lumped into Pale Ale along with Mild in that late 1970's schemeEd Carsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-51259487503822923122010-08-30T08:58:01.092-07:002010-08-30T08:58:01.092-07:00Ed, I think you're pretty close to the mark th...Ed, I think you're pretty close to the mark there. <br /><br />It's precisely the ones missing from that scheme that interest me. Like Burton. And Old Burton.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-86540800587562694272010-08-30T08:33:53.624-07:002010-08-30T08:33:53.624-07:00Commercial beers in 1978 in the U.S. were essentia...Commercial beers in 1978 in the U.S. were essentially the international lager style. There was some ale and cream ale, some of which was top-fermented, and a little top-fermented porter (just Anchor's, I think). Jackson built his schema in part on earlier efforts including, in my opinion, Wahl & Henius early 1900's textbook and Andrew Campbell's 1950's book. All pioneers have to start somewhere... <br /><br />Of course, Jackson enlarged enormously on the basic classifications. He used his writing skills and literary imagination in the effort, thus e.g., creating the romance of Imperial Russian Stout, India Pale Ale and Trappist monastery beer.<br /><br />The process of understanding beer and brewing history is a series of stepping stones since (essentially) the 1800's. Some were small, some were medium-size, some were large. His was the biggest, to date.<br /><br />Today, beer historical studies are more fragmented than in 1978-1990. You have specialist historical books and of course much activity on various blogs not least this one. It will all filter down to the popular level but this will take some time. <br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-24105470811839857072010-08-30T04:35:42.236-07:002010-08-30T04:35:42.236-07:00Idea: beer style guidelines= commercial beers avai...Idea: beer style guidelines= commercial beers available in USA in 1978 + beers mentioned in Michael Jackson's "Pocket guide to beer" 1st ed. Discuss.Ed Carsonnoreply@blogger.com