tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post3701777889004995238..comments2024-03-28T13:20:29.156-07:00Comments on Shut up about Barclay Perkins: Coloured malts (part four)Ron Pattinsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-50975043032109649762010-10-10T07:27:26.393-07:002010-10-10T07:27:26.393-07:00Reading between the lines, it's interesting to...Reading between the lines, it's interesting to notice what they didn't know about brewing chemistry in 1907.<br /><br />Of course you can't make crystal malt from raw barley! Enzyme creation during malting is a necessary precursor to saccharification of the starches during the crystal malting process.<br /><br />@Gary: I've never seen bacterial contamination causing color change either. Your idea about light causing the change might be spot on.<br /><br />Possibly though, the presence of certain bugs might encourage flocculation (since the bacteria serve as nucleation points) which would help precipitate suspended colorant particles.<br /><br />Alternately, the presence of bugs in the beer might increase haze which would give the optical illusion of lighter color.Thomas Barnesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-33271322386464260952010-10-08T15:05:29.064-07:002010-10-08T15:05:29.064-07:00I meant (Ron, do you never edit? :)), on the wrong...I meant (Ron, do you never edit? :)), on the wrong syll-A-ble). The very worthy Tuborg Pure Gold must have diverted my attention, it is brewed in Turkey under supervision of Carlsberg in Copenhagen, but excellent of its type. Must be that high quality Smyrna barley, and I must thank Martyn for mentioning that Turkey is a historical barley cultivation area.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-82746955756867263082010-10-08T13:24:37.705-07:002010-10-08T13:24:37.705-07:00I'm fascinated to see this discussion about co...I'm fascinated to see this discussion about colour and its measurement in beer, the technics are far more involved than I would have thought and I am at sea in this area. Personally, I've never given a fig about colour. Within reasonable bounds, okay, e.g., a stout should be blackish-brown I suppose but I don't care what colour beer is really, I care what it tastes like. I don't care about consistency in this regard either. Can commercial brewers be giving too much importance to this question? Methinks they are putting the emphasis on the syllAble.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-88767191706117682572010-10-08T13:12:40.574-07:002010-10-08T13:12:40.574-07:00The statement: "as the colour of malt is no l...The statement: <i>"as the colour of malt is no longer measure this way"</i><br /><br />Is almost certainly incorrect. Maltsters still measure colour visually because the usual electronic method does not work with the standard IoB/EBC/ASBC trial mash. Basically the stuff is mashed and measured. As there is no boil there is lots of protein in solution / suspension. Not only does this protein scatter the 430nm light that is shone through the sample for electronic measurements but protein has an absorption line at, yep, 430nm. <br /><br />Anyway, electronic methods give errors with the standard test mash. So maltsters have stuck with the visual method. <br /><br />That is the reason for Americans using Lovibond (visual) for malt and SRM (electronic) for beer. Despite what many American home brewers think, Lovibond and SRM are two separate and widely divergent scales at anything above lager colour.<br /><br />Americans have an advantage here, because they still use the S52 scale. Although the S52 scale has possibly had several realignments since 1907, all they have to do is divide your numbers by two to give colour in terms of their beloved Lovibond scale normalised to half-inch path length. <br /><br />Yes, yeast does remove colour from beer - all to do with ionic charges and all that - but it is not enough to worry about and is compensated for by the small amount of additional colour generated to the boil.<br /><br />Colloidal stability (of colour in beer) is a science all to itself, which is more important with something like medicines where you do not want the ingredients to separate and stratify, raising the possibility of poisoning someone with a concentrated dose.<br /><br />Old-fashioned burnt sugar caramel (Type a in Europe; type 1 in America) is not very stable in beer. Only some variants of type c (type 3) caramel are stable in beer. All to do with ionic charges yet again. <br /><br />As for roasted malt, I have no idea; I guess that it must be stable, but I am all ears or eyes.<br /><br />Of course, stability is not the same as sunlight bleaching, which will bleach just about anything.Graham Wheelernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-58422177211278296432010-10-08T06:26:15.516-07:002010-10-08T06:26:15.516-07:00I look forward to that Ron. Implicit in my remark...I look forward to that Ron. Implicit in my remarks is that caramel probably was often used without always being disclosed (perhaps even to him). <br /><br />I certainly accept that some coloured malt was inherently unstable or of poor quality as he stated, e.g., it makes sense that for some blown malts, carbonized particulate matter in solution could drop out over time. <br /><br />But as for de-colouring due to the action of special yeasts, I doubt that very much. I've never experienced that in 40 years of drinking beer including many bottle-conditioned and weird types. <br /><br />Look forward to more.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-65220514178209796042010-10-08T04:52:46.095-07:002010-10-08T04:52:46.095-07:00Gary, I'll be posting the details of his exper...Gary, I'll be posting the details of his experiments with colour permanency soon. They were performed on beers coloured with roasted malt and roasted barley.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-64522731621599819902010-10-08T04:27:42.615-07:002010-10-08T04:27:42.615-07:00All very interesting. His comments about de-color...All very interesting. His comments about de-colorization don't make sense to me, and I have never heard anything like this. One would think it would have been remarked by the hundreds of writers we have now seen, many experienced practical brewers, writing in different centuries - yet nary a word. His theory that certain yeast types are capable of doing this is speculation IMO and I doubt it can be substantiated.<br /><br />However, I'll offer a theory of my own, which has been substantiated in my own experience. Authors on the production of distilled spirits have noted that caramel, used to impart or standardize colour in rum and whisky notably, can fade out of the drink over time. This especially can occur where the bottles are exposed to strong light for a considerable time - there is a photosynthesis reaction which destroys the colour somehow.<br /><br />Across the street from where I write, in the outlet there of the Liquor Control Board of Ontario, there was a window display a couple of years back of well-known brands of Canadian and American whisky. One, a 12 year old whisky which has a dark colour, had almost completely faded, to a pale watery tan - the difference from the "fresh" product was striking. There was a bottle of bourbon next to it, and it was as dark as when first packaged. Bourbon by law cannot have any caramel in it, the colour is all-natural, from the barrel.<br /><br />I think the beers Briant observed which lost colour had been treated with spirit caramel (to darken them) and the caramel finally faded from the drink, whether under influence of light, or other factors. If light was not the cause in all cases, e.g., for barreled beers, yeast may have been in the sense that in that pre-pasteurizing era, slow secondary and further ferments may have consumed the sugar in the caramel. For this to happen though, no very exotic yeasts were required.<br /><br />This is what I think at any rate, I could be wrong, but I don't think so.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.com