tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post3215444694917897651..comments2024-03-29T03:17:49.172-07:00Comments on Shut up about Barclay Perkins: Irish breweries in 1869Ron Pattinsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-54595017084955748302010-08-26T15:03:17.152-07:002010-08-26T15:03:17.152-07:00Do you mean the 4.5% ABV Smithwick's brewed fo...Do you mean the 4.5% ABV Smithwick's brewed for North America? It's one of those beers I'm intensely curious about, like the 6% Guinness Extra Stout. Irish Smithwick's tastes like diluted fizzy water.<br /><br />I don't think there's any way of knowing what the beer made by Lett's of Enniscorthy was like. I certainly wouldn't take Coors' or Heineken's word that it's somehow related to the modern abomination.The Beer Nuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105708522526153528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-37078935668063034222010-08-26T12:02:38.051-07:002010-08-26T12:02:38.051-07:00Ron, initially I thought the same thing (re Irish ...Ron, initially I thought the same thing (re Irish Red Ale being essentially a keg beer style) but then I was thinking that George Lett's beer, made at Enniscorthy as Beer Nut has stated, was a red ale. It inspired George Killian's made by Pelforth in Lille and the ditto made by Coors and that is a red sweetish ale, somewhat like the keg style mentioned. (Actually the Coors version is a lager today, is my understanding).<br /><br />Lett was brewing it in the 1950's, so this must have been a pre-keg beer, presumably cask-conditioned or at least filtered and unpasteurized. So there must have been a red ale type before Smithwick's and that style. I like Smithwick's incidentally, it is one of the few mass-produced ales that has a decent flavour IMO.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-3876001334557614752010-08-26T06:51:04.709-07:002010-08-26T06:51:04.709-07:00As regards a distinct Irish beer, possibly heather...As regards a distinct Irish beer, possibly <a href="http://zythophile.wordpress.com/2008/07/23/heather-ale-scots-or-irish/" rel="nofollow">heather ale</a>.<br /><br />Irish red ale dates from the 1960s at the earliest. And Ron's right: Smithwick's and kegged Bass taste exactly the same -- I checked. I've no idea what you mean by "Porter > Plain".The Beer Nuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105708522526153528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-569747633219404282010-08-26T06:44:36.899-07:002010-08-26T06:44:36.899-07:00Thomas, Dry Stout only goes back to the 1950's...Thomas, Dry Stout only goes back to the 1950's. Irish Porter and Stout was quite different before then.<br /><br />Smithwick's was originally supposed to be a Pale Ale. I always think of Irish Red Ale as Keg Bitter.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-30145057623805031222010-08-26T05:51:58.283-07:002010-08-26T05:51:58.283-07:00Now all we need to do is discover what sort of bee...Now all we need to do is discover what sort of beers all these breweries were brewing!<br /><br />Late 19th and early 20th century Irish brewing seems to be dominated by English beer styles, although the Irish put their own spin on it (Stout > Dry Stout, Porter > Plain, Bitter > Irish Red). I wonder if that was the case historically?<br /><br />Was there ever a truly distinct "Irish Ale"?Thomas Barnesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-84961539610401486742010-08-22T12:32:23.892-07:002010-08-22T12:32:23.892-07:00Good question, Gary. Lett had taken ownership of t...Good question, Gary. Lett had taken ownership of the Enniscorthy brewery five years previously. I don't know why it wouldn't be in this list.<br /><br />There are a few brands here which ran well into the 20th century. Blood and Brennan (mispelled in the list) ran, respectively, the Mountjoy and Phoenix breweries. Phoenix had been founded by Daniel O'Connell Jr and was the biggest competitor to Guinness in Dublin. When Guinness bought and closed them, the O'Connell's brand survived until 1926 down the street at the Anchor brewery, listed here as D'Arcy. Mountjoy was the last of the old Dublin independents to close, still turning out Crown-brand Nourishing Stout into the 1950s.<br /><br />Ron, yes I reckon there's no harm at all asking Diageo for a peek. If they agree I'll happily go in for a preliminary poke round on your behalf.The Beer Nuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105708522526153528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-27247156081145372272010-08-22T10:19:09.147-07:002010-08-22T10:19:09.147-07:00Gary, I'm sure that I've got some stats fo...Gary, I'm sure that I've got some stats for the number of breweries in Ireland at various points. I just can't seem to find them.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-71482204306581699202010-08-22T10:05:34.773-07:002010-08-22T10:05:34.773-07:00Of the names that survive in extant breweries or b...Of the names that survive in extant breweries or brand names (or those into the last generation), I recognize only Guinness; Beamish; Murphy; Macardle; Cherry; Perry; Smithwick; Caffrey. I might be conflating Cherry and Perry, but one of them at least was a brand name in the last 50 years, the former I think. <br /><br />Where is George Lett? Probably the ownership had changed by the 1950's (when it closed, however its productions live on in various license arrangements).<br /><br />I've always read that beer in Ireland, while of a certain antiquity, was never widespread as a drink. The laurels went to whiskey, or so I've understood. While Guinness's fame cannot be denied, it came relatively late and was an imported style to boot. <br /><br />I know Arthur Guinness made ale before porter, but what kind of ale? Was that an English inspiration too? The first Guinness was I believe an Anglo-Irish personage, and I wonder if all his brewing ideas came from England. <br /><br />And yet, the Loftus list counts a respectable number of breweries, but as noted many were probably quite small.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-44618967443535816062010-08-22T07:33:34.729-07:002010-08-22T07:33:34.729-07:00Beer Nut, that they've left so few traces just...Beer Nut, that they've left so few traces just makes them all the more fascinating.<br /><br />Do you think I should try asking Guinness again if I can have a peek in their archive? I'd love to see their brewing records.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-40697253053137843182010-08-22T05:30:47.279-07:002010-08-22T05:30:47.279-07:00A lot of them seemed to have been tiny, short-live...A lot of them seemed to have been tiny, short-lived and undocumented affairs. A grocer or wholesaler in tea, butter, bacon etc might do a bit of whiskey bonding, maybe bottle for a big brewery, and then perhaps lash together a brewery in a back room somewhere. They've left very few traces behind.The Beer Nuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105708522526153528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-56027993487212762942010-08-22T05:26:37.018-07:002010-08-22T05:26:37.018-07:00Beer Nut, I thought it looked pretty handy. I'...Beer Nut, I thought it looked pretty handy. I've found it much harder to dig up information on former Irish breweries than English or Scottish ones.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-85037285865060556562010-08-22T03:57:51.117-07:002010-08-22T03:57:51.117-07:00Other corrections:
Ballygawley: Co. Tyrone.
New Ro...Other corrections:<br />Ballygawley: Co. Tyrone.<br />New Ross: Co. Wexford.<br />Ballymoney: Co. Antrim.<br />Coleraine: Co. Londonderry.<br /><br />It's a great list. We have a few of them marked on <a href="http://www.irishcraftbrewer.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=106&Itemid=64" rel="nofollow">this map</a>, though without the names attached.The Beer Nuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105708522526153528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-25125641975868403762010-08-22T03:43:04.666-07:002010-08-22T03:43:04.666-07:00Beer Nut, thanks very much.
I was really pleased ...Beer Nut, thanks very much.<br /><br />I was really pleased to find this list. It has the most Irish breweries I've ever seen.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-53013675570518074252010-08-22T03:09:42.183-07:002010-08-22T03:09:42.183-07:00Well, if you change "Laois" to "Que...Well, if you change "Laois" to "Queen's County", "Fingal" to "Dublin" and join the Tipperaries up you will, I think, have the counties as they stood in 1869.<br /><br /> Oh, except Lurgan is in my home county of Armagh, not Mayo.The Beer Nuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105708522526153528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-9108163002026971622010-08-22T03:02:34.740-07:002010-08-22T03:02:34.740-07:00Beer Nut, my understanding of Irish counties isn&#...Beer Nut, my understanding of Irish counties isn't great. Some of the original entries included the county. For the others, I just typed the place names into Google maps and used the county that gave. <br /><br />Any corrections are welcome.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5445569787371915337.post-43994542934718982672010-08-22T02:53:46.056-07:002010-08-22T02:53:46.056-07:00What's with the county column? If you're g...What's with the county column? If you're going for the modern county that the brewery is in (eg Laois), the Dublin ones should be "Dublin" for all of them I think. Fingal is the northern administrative part of the former county Dublin but doesn't stretch as far south as the city centre.The Beer Nuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105708522526153528noreply@blogger.com